Do you use the /haven channel in-game?
Submitted by Echö on November 9, 2011 - 1:59pm
Yes! I love to chat with the other RPers in /haven!
25% (22 votes)
Sometimes, but usually only when other people start chatting.
20% (17 votes)
Not really, but I lurk there.
25% (22 votes)
Sorry, I use other channels for most of my chatting!
21% (18 votes)
I think we should have a totally different OOC RPers channel!
3% (3 votes)
We don't need no steeenking channels!
1% (1 vote)
I'll explain my unique situation and thoughts in the comments!
5% (4 votes)
Total votes: 87
Hey folks! So I was doing
Hey folks! So I was doing some things on another RP server recently, and found their OOC RPers channel because I like to have some chatter going on while I play. When I /who'ed the channel out of curiosity, my eyes got this big - O.O - at the huge list of characters there. It got pretty lively now and then as well. Now I know many of us have our homey OOC-guild channels and whatnot, but what about /Haven, on either faction? I've seen very little action A-side lately, with very few folks actually in the channel. What's up with that?
I remember the /realmportal channel being a lively place way back when I first joined ShC. It's something I kind of miss, when I think about it, even with chummy guild chat and so forth.
I'd love to see what's up and if anyone has any further thoughts about it.
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
Well the internet trolls
Well the internet trolls chased us out /OOC which is where all the new RPers are going to try first. Not seeing many people they then likely wander off. I think it'd be best if we could somehow retake /OOC
I go there. H-side there are
I go there. H-side there are usually quite a few names even at the time of day I'm around, but A-side it's always dead as a dodo no matter when I log in.
Not sure why this is. Don't want to ask in case it's drama related ;)
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"(I) know what art is! It's paintings of horses!"
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I definitely left the A-Side
I definitely left the A-Side haven channel because of Drama and never looked back. That's all it was for about five months or so was dramadramadramadrama. I think the people who were stirring it up either quit or went to another server, I just... haven't really rejoined.
I'm definitely in it H-Side though ;)
I'm pretty shy in OOC
I'm pretty shy in OOC channels in general, but I do like to lurk!
"Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you've got to be kind."
-Kurt Vonnegut
I tend to use my guild
I tend to use my guild channels for chatting. I have debated joining the /OOC as it's the more intuitive channel for new folks to join when they come to our server.
There are various reasons I don't use /Haven, nor the jabber chatroom anymore.
Lately, I hear from others who lurk in Aside /Haven that it's dead these days. Maybe I'll pop back in, dunno. I keep my IC channels in a different chatbox so things aren't so lost in scroll, and I can temporarily expand or decrease the size of the RP text as needed. :)
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Avatar by Luneaus
(( I don't think I was ever
(( I don't think I was ever in the Haven channel, or at least not for very long. I was in the Realmportal channel back in the day, and by the time I started contributing to the Haven website, my chat channels were maxed out. I was told that it was pretty much the same crowd in both channels, so I didn't worry too much about only being in one.
I ended up forsaking the general RP channels when a player went on a tirade with hate speech in both Haven and Realmportal. It was an isolated incident for certain, but kind of like finding a fly in your soup at a longtime favorite restaurant. Common sense says it's unlikely to happen again, but you still don't want to eat there.
I don't know if it was ever present in Haven, but I did see a trend in several other RP-centric channels that got under my skin. It's somewhat related to the question regardless, as it caused me to pare down my channel list heavily.
I don't think it's the least bit cool to use RP-centric channels for venting about underperforming players in dungeons, or carrying on with overbearing Elitist Jerks style gameplay discussion. Since RP-related epeenery (arpeenery?) is frowned upon, and it's generally held that everyone should be tolerant and accepting of each other's RP styles and choices, I'm not sure when and why it became fashionable to do the opposite for gameplay.
That said, it's entirely possible I'm a sissy-pants coward who retreated into a tiny list of channels to do her own thing, rather than sticking around to help make things better. I still think general OOC chat channels for role-players are wonderful when everyone manages to coexist in reasonably peaceful fashion. Of course, with volatile mixtures of personalities, this doesn't always happen. I could share some interesting stories from my tenure as a Realmportal moderator or my experiences in RIFT, but this comment is far too long and rambling already.
On the other side of the coin, things can be too peaceful if nobody's really conversing in the channel at all. Heulwen definitely isn't the first person I've heard comment on Alliance-side Haven being silent as a tomb. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
I have to admit, I'm
I have to admit, I'm personally not in favor of taking other talk out of the "RP-centric" channels. Whether it's WoW related in some way or not. If you have to move PvE or PvP discussion elsewhere, by that thought, then you need to move the friendly chatterthat isn't WoW related. To *me* the channels have always seemed a place to get to know the -people- and community, not to immerse myself in RP-only topics. /Haven has always been a place I thought of as "actively RP friendly", but not exclusive to 'hard core/full time' RPers and not actually centered around RP itself.
If the non-RP talk bothers you enough to leave channel, that's too bad, but understandable given your preferences. I'm glad you have avenues to get the kind of channel you want. :)
I DO agree that negativity should be monitored in these places: Public channels are *not* the place, in my opinion, to name call or talk badly about someone. Whether it's RP or PvE or what not. You don't have to be rainbows and kittens 24-7, and you don't have to avoid -courteous- debate, but careful with snark, whether it is for someone present or not. Plus, it makes you look like a judgmental jerk.
Vent all you want in *private* channels, I certainly do, but /Haven is a *public* channel that anyone can join as long as they're respectful.
For myself, I am still in the channels on both sides, and have been for years. Hside is definitely chattier, and it's had it's problems certainly, but is still used quite a lot. Aside, people quietly left for personal reasons, not causing drama, simply leaving when the channel didn't seem to suit them anymore, much like Mary. I think for similar reasons of negativity. A few bad apples can spoil the barrel. The channel is so quiet these days that I think there's a real opportunity to "reclaim" it, as it were.
I would encourage everyone to consider rejoining /Haven, or even /OoC (Yes, I'm still in that one, too). Like others have stated, /OoC is probably the best place to catch and interest new people, I have found.
I agree with Kharris; I know
I agree with Kharris; I know I don't tend to consider guild channels as purely RP channels, especially if the guild chat itself is entirely IC (as it is for Meddlers and Dragoons). They also don't tend to be as public (maybe semi-public at best) in my mind since they are specifically for guild members and other invitees who agree to those officers' rules, though they are often very full of people. There can be a dozen folks in Meddlers on a given night, not just raid evenings. But that's not "a lot" usually.
If my guildies/friends in those channels have questions about quests, raids, instances, want to know things about their class to improve their personal game (especially if they're afraid of the LFD and want to get better to be less afraid!) or just need to vent a bit about a rough group they had, I think that's perfectly the place for it; it's a guild channel. So long as it's within the rules the officers/people running that channel have set down, there shouldn't be an issue.
Bad behavior, aggressive negativity, and utterly breaking the set-down rules of the channel should be kept out of it, yeah. But we've ALL also fallen victim to it before--anyone who claims otherwise is lying to themselves--so put on the big kid pants, apologize, and move on when it happens.
What has made me leave channels like /Haven has been 1) lack of moderation when people do act out repeatedly, and 2) it's dead a lot of times because people feel they can't talk about anything but RP, and only RP, all the time. If they can't talk about anything else for fear of upsetting someone, then...yeah. Dead channel with a lot of lurkers and no one interacting at all, in my observations, and not just on WoW. Mileage may vary (and it's rare that any channel stays entirely one-topic-centric 100% the time, but still).
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Avatar by Luneaus
(( I think you misunderstood
(( I think you misunderstood what I meant. It's not that I want gameplay discussion moved elsewhere, period. It's a matter of tone and (in my view) double standards concerning what constitutes an acceptable level of attitude-copping. For purposes of comparison:
Let's say someone in a RP community channel decides to vent about the person he's RPing with. "Ugh, this guy. His grammar and spelling are abysmal. I can't believe he's wearing that outfit, it's all wrong for his character. Why did I have to get stuck with him?" I'd assume that most people would be rather put off, and someone would probably politely ask him to stop needlessly bashing another player in the channel.
But concerning an instance run: "Ugh, this guy. His DPS is abysmal. I can't believe he's wearing that gear, it's all wrong for his spec. Why did I have to get stuck with him?" In my experience, this would be much more acceptable (some folks would even offer words of sympathy/support) even though to my eyes, it's the same exact thing.
Where Elitist Jerks style gameplay chatter is concerned, suppose someone says something supposedly cutesy and self-deprecating like "I've finally got a thrown weapon instead of a gun! Once I replace the rest of this quest gear, I'll no longer be such a sad failrogue." Or perhaps something like "to play spec A you need stat B at a minimum of C. You need to favor X over Y and ignore Z or else you'll underperform. Also, that weapon sucks, you'll need to get a different one". Translate both of those to RP-related discussion, replete with words like fail and need, and I think a lot of people would be upset.
I've never understood why the acceptability level of that kind of chatter varies depending on the subject. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
As outfits go, what people
As outfits go, what people dress their characters up isn't my problem. As for spelling and grammar, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere without someone telling me I was doing something wrong and helping me to fix it. It's also why Haven has a Grammar Goblin.
Same goes for PvE. Part of the experience is learning and doing it wrong and having somebody tell you "You're doing it wrong". Does everyone want to hear that? Of course not. I complain about PUGs all the time because they do not want to hear it or change what they're doing even if they are doing it wrong and it is not beneficial to the group. RP is subjective, but PvE content is math. Take x talent because you want it? Sure, but because you didn't take y, your numbers are going to take a hit. To play spec A -right-, yes, you do need stat b at a minimum of C.
If you don't like PvE content, by all means, don't do it, but don't hate on the rest of us who do like and and use our PvE channel to help everyone else figure out what they need to do to succeed.
The difference is that
The difference is that Grammar Goblin does not trash anyone's grammar usage in public channels without someone ASKING for their grammar to be trashed.
Unsolicited advice and opinions in public channels is a really unpleasant thing. I agree with Mary fully there. Some of my most irritated moments in-game have stemmed from people who hardly know me telling me how to play.
Granted, I have also seen lots of discussions on how people should RP, and even how people should type emotes, in public channels.
Opinions are always going to get batted about like that. People are going to vent. It would be really nice if they could keep it out of public channels, but people get comfortable and feel they can spew whatever they have on their mind without any clue they might be offending someone who is merely lurking and listening.
I really think that an open, all-inclusive channel has to end up being somewhat formal and superficial, though at the same time cannot have any in-your-face rules. The formality and superficiality would just keep it from becoming too comfortable, so that people keep their bitching and ranting and opinions to guild and comfy-buddies channels, where they're less likely to offend new people, lurkers, or various passers-by. Sadly, an impression about an entire server can be made in a few lines of text thoughtlessly displayed.
Oh I feel so high on my horse saying all that. HOITY-TOITY even. Lol.
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
Right, and generally in the
Right, and generally in the public, not invite only, channels I'm in, we don't do that. Sure, there are a few players where I'll have to stop and say in our OOC chat that, "Look, I have no idea what you're trying to get across in that sentence, what is going on" because the grammar is so off and there are better ways to accomplish what they want to accomplish with the proper grammar. Do they listen? Rarely, and it frustrates me to the point that I don't want to play with them because I can't understand what they're saying and I'll suddenly get a slew of "BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT"s or "That's not what happened"s.
Same goes for PvE, especially in a raid environment. Everybody there I'm pretty close to, especially if they're a guildie. If there's a better way to do what they're doing and they're disappointed with what they're doing, I can generally tell them how to fix it. All of my ooc channels have rules. For one of them, it's no religion talk, no politics, no hot button issues, and keep it PG because some people have issues with swear words and there are kids that are in that channel. Pve/pvp/Rp is fair game. Once upon a time we -did- have someone complain about the number crunching and we made a seperate channel to talk about that in completely. I love my number crunchy channel, it's fabulous because I can talk theory and not be called elitist.
I have another channel that's PG-13 until past kids bedtime.
I enjoyed the Haven channel before the drama cropped up because we were able to just chat like normal folks who weren't RPing at the time. I think many people don't take channel rules and purpose into consideration unless it's something that's posted somewhere.
(( "Sadly, an impression
(( "Sadly, an impression about an entire server can be made in a few lines of text thoughtlessly displayed."
This is all kinds of true, and applies not just to new folks, but to those of us who've been around for ages and have managed to develop reasonably thick skin otherwise.
I left Realmportal and OOC (and chose not to join Haven) mostly because of a six-letter F word and the manner in which it was used. Even knowing it probably wouldn't happen again, and having put up with all kinds of crazy crap at the Leaf etc., the circumstances were such that it bothered me a lot and I never fully felt comfortable about going back. I maintained then (and still maintain) that the ShC RP community is awesome on the whole -- it's why I've drifted back here twice after checking out other games
-- but sometimes one bad apple is all it takes to drive folks away. ))
________________________________
Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
A lot of it is how people
A lot of it is how people choose to phrase it. A lot of it is how people choose to take it. There are places to meet in the middle on both.
Not everyone is out to offend people, even if they are tactless in their typing. Not everyone says something's bothering them or WHY until it gets to a point where they throw what looks like a fit over something minor. People tend to use absolute style phrases ("need", "should", etc) when they really do mean choice ("want," "could", etc). Some people take words at exact definition face value.
If public channels are problematic for a person, they may have to decide to stay out of them more often than not, or only join them on one character. If people are constantly getting pissed off at someone for things they say, well, there's a common denominator there, and how things are being said should probably be re-evaluated by that one person. it's not changing who you are or your "face" it's just altering some details to get along in the world. Social interaction rules apply to online as much as face-to-face. I know I come away from drama situations and arguments thinking "I could have done that differently."
In the end, I'd consider an /OOC public and play nice in there (or try to anyway, days happen). I probably wouldn't say much unless discussion was already happening, but I do that in my private channels too!
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Avatar by Luneaus
(( Aside? Dead. Hside?
(( Aside? Dead. Hside? Lively. Has Haven gotten heated Hside? Yes. But have we handled it well? Yes. Its supposed to be a "haven" for those of us who RP. *Anyone* who RPs. ))
All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better. What if they are a little coarse, and you may get your coat soiled or torn? What if you do fail, and get fairly rolled in the dirt once or twice. Up again, you shall never be so afraid of a tumble. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Question, and Challenge."
(It is morning. Please excuse
(It is morning. Please excuse my grammar.)
This is how I feel about it too. There is always going to be some amount of unneeded and very heated words -name calling, character bashing, obvious disagreements- but we take care of it. I have found myself leaving the channel because of drama crazed fanatics or out-of-hand debates, but by doing that I feel it should set an example to others to do the same and show those heated people to cut the bull-crap. It is all about how it is handled.
Still, I only lurk; some of the conversations are interesting, but they are rarely something I want to involve myself in. I usually wait until I see something interesting before I speak up.
Best way to get haven channel lively, greetings. "Hey guys," when you sign on is sometimes enough to get someone talking, and a "Hello Rya," will certainly get me chatting in the channel.
I voted that I believe the
I voted that I believe the channel should be a different channel. There are several reasons for this and I'll explain them.
OOC is easier to find
When I tour other servers, the OOC channel is the first channel I check. I don't read the WoW forums so having a channel name that is different than an obvious 'default' like OOC is counter-intuitive to catching roleplayers.
The channel should be for roleplayers, not Havenites
By naming the channel Haven, it could cause people to infer that the channel is moderated by RP-Haven staff or that people in the channel are specifically posting on Haven or part of the "Haven" community. There are people who role-play that I know refuse to post here because they don't like the staff or the crowd. I met one yesterday role-playing in Orgrimmar. When I invited him to join the channel, he said he wanted nothing to do with RP-Haven because the website was full of 'lore ignoring drama whores.' He said he hadn't been here (on the site) in years and I don't know what gave him this opinion, but he's certainly not going to change it isolated from the role-playing community because he doesn't want to be part of the 'haven' community.
Changing the channel name restores neutrality.
In other news, the other day I happened upon a conversation in the Horde Haven channel where someone was asking if they should invite a role-player to join the channel. They weren't sure of the 'quality' of the role-player. I think that sort of elitism hurts us more than anything else ever could. It doesn't matter, at least to me, whether the person is the worst role-player in the world or the best. People learn from example and we need to provide it. The whole discussion left a very sour taste in my mouth because it is the elitist view that has harmed this community in the past.
I also think that on both sides of the fence we must do as much as possible to promote role-play. This means actively seeking out fellow role-players on the server and if they aren't in the channel, inviting them in. I repeatedly invite people in Pox to join the channel. Some do, some don't. But unless we actively recruit roleplayers into the community, it won't grow and it will continue to be stagnant.
That assumption about
That assumption about moderation has bitten the /Haven channels themselves a few times and caused in-community drama, and then we expect new people to want to join. Especially since the apparently outdated FAQ says that the /Haven channels will be moderated by the Haven staff as it's tied to the website community.
This doesn't work when a good number of the mod staff don't play the game, or play only on secret alts no one can contact in order to avoid issues (occasionally, people need a break yes, but all the time?), or are only active for one faction. I'm glad we have a few new mods who are actually active in game now. Haven activity alone doesn't count; I know a lot of people who continue to RP or post stories while not subscribed to WoW.
It also doesn't work when many claim there is no way to moderate the channel because of how the mod-asterisk gets passed to the oldest existing character in the channel when the previous "mod" logs off. To that, I cry "Bullhockey." I've seen people who create and run a channel with rules remind people very firmly, but politely, of the channel rules that are being broken and to adhere to them or please leave. Either privately or publicly. It works pretty well, especially when others in the channel back it. Social pressure moderation can work in an open environment.
Some of the discussions you mention here, I've seen in /Haven and mods have done nothing, if they were even around to deal with it at all. Heck, I left the jabber chatbox because of the apparent tacit approval of letting one "jerk" player run another "jerk" player out of RP if not off the server entirely--And some of the folks in this thread who are claiming that behavior is awful were just as complicit in it, overtly or silently. Hence my comment of "we've all done it so stop throwing the blamey-stones."
And yes, there are people who just don't like certain people on Haven who are fairly active. People who tell others that this is the elitist crowd of RPers who hurt the rest of server RP. Telling people to join the /Haven channel is less intuitive and gives that impression that to be "in" you need to know about Haven and posting here, or be ignored as a RPer. And, well, everything I just said. While I point people at Haven's site and channels, I also try to point out that it's not a requirement, but it is handy to meet folks and find the events.
Speaking of, we should probably do an update on the Realm Forum of the weekly events and such if it hasn't been done recently...And just post there more often in general.
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Avatar by Luneaus
Looks like I should read the
Looks like I should read the FAQ more often...I didn't know it said that >.>
*goes off and mutters behind the curtain*
Ahh, OK, it means whoever is holding the chat channel moderation, not the Haven Moderators...good, thought I'd missed that in the job description ;)
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"(I) know what art is! It's paintings of horses!"
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I think it got updated after
I think it got updated after a recent dust-up Hordeside that I and a few other Asiders got drug into for...some reason? I dunno. I just know I strongly suggested there be a general overhaul of the FAQs and particularly that one. I may have missed the most recent update, I've been busy @.@
Because since Haven began, a rule was in place that the Haven mods would run the channel--and people got upset when that didn't happen, or mods were involved in some things, etc. People expected Haven mods to do things about what was happening in channel, only to feel blown off when mods wouldn't do anything claiming that they couldn't. Or when a member moderated something nasty happening in chat (like that nasty incident that drove Mary out of /RealmPortal and /Haven, I remember that specifically and how it got handled due to the drama blow up) and it caused problems on this website.
And we always come back to debating a /Haven chat channel for finding or promoting RP. But no one wants to 'run' it because then it's a private channel with rules that need enforced, or a public channel no one feels they can moderate so expect terrible things in, and...
This is actually feeling really circular and repetitive. People either want to chat in public channels or they don't. If they do, it probably shouldn't have Haven's name on it unless that's going to be a moderated channel so people continue to feel "safe".
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Avatar by Luneaus
I've seen people who create
I've seen people who create and run a channel with rules remind people very firmly, but politely, of the channel rules that are being broken and to adhere to them or please leave. Either privately or publicly. It works pretty well, especially when others in the channel back it. Social pressure moderation can work in an open environment.
The problem with this is consistency. In a smaller channel run by a specific group - like the Meddler's PG-rated channel - it's easy for one group or person to assert a push towards certain guidelines and expect others to follow. In an open, public channel with no specific group behind it, a person who asserts rules like that can be seen as much a jerk as the person "breaking" the previously unspoken rule.
For example, playing on another server in a large OOC channel, one guy was idly chatting with some others about some books he'd recently read, and what he might look into reading next. He mentioned looking for some lighter material because a book he'd just read had a lot of rape in it. A few moments passed than the person with moderation rights told him to watch his language. He and some other people questioned that person, asking what he had said that was so offensive. The moderator person got all "This channel is only supposed to be for RP related conversation!" and promptly kicked him out.
As someone new to the server, I watched this and was utterly *appaled* at the behavior of the person with moderation privledges. Is this what they do here? Kick people out for just chatting about some books and using the word "rape"? A number of people in the channel were just as baffled but never got any explanation from the moderator.
Now later on the channel was perfectly normal, bantering about TV shows and movies. It all depended on who was there.
The moment you take on any kind of moderation role is the moment you begin asserting just as much control over a group as any asshole who begins running his mouth. Then it becomes a battle between good guys vs. bad guys and we've seen enough of that to know it's a very tricky line to walk.
Which is why, again, I think it's best to take a lighthearted approach to any public - and I mean public, not guild or group-owned - channel, and use /ignore and muting as necessary. Maybe if people had just /ignored the offensive people in A-side /haven and continued to chat there, instead of leaving after "nothing was done" it wouldn't be the dead quiet place it is today.
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
Given it already seemed a low
Given it already seemed a low population, and people's negativity was feeding each other, I know for me it became a balance of "put a number of folks on /ignore, or not be in the channel." Which is how I think how it works for a lot of people, just in general: "Is this channel's standard discussion and vibe right enough for me to /ignore the ones who bother me, or would that silence too large a percentage to feel like a viable channel/leave me with too many half-convos?"
It was also at a time when so far as the posted rules stated, /Haven was supposed to be moderated, which can feel like it ties the hands of the community members as much as the mods themselves. The people causing problems can pull the "you ain't the boss of me!" and the "nyah nyah nyah!" shout-down effect. It's good the rules updated; it sucks it took more drama to do it.
The other problem for a lot of people (I have less of an issue) is when they feel that "but, this person I don't get along with (is a Haven mod/runs a major social event/is in my guild/raids with my friends/etc) and so I CAN'T put them on ignore!" Yes, yes you can. Or you can at least act like civil adults without pretending to be buddy-buddy. Or you can remove yourself from an unpleasant situation and keep in touch with the friends still there by multiple means.
Game = fun. If a situation is making it unfun, my general advice to people is to use /ignore or leave the unpleasant situation, if they've tried to deal with it and nothing's worked.
I love the website, obviously. The chatbox and in game channel, though, left negative impressions for various reasons. I probably won't go back because my smaller private channels are enough nattering for me and the set up of them also works decently. I'm not hard to find, in game or out, so I don't think that cuts me off from anyone looking to interact with one of my characters or me as a player.
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Avatar by Luneaus
(( I find the "we've all done
(( I find the "we've all done it" thing to be a gross overgeneralization, and "we're all guilty so put down the blamey-stones" is a rather presumptuous and dismissive stance to take, unless what you're trying to say is "everyone could be considered a jerk in chat from someone else's point of view", which is certainly valid. When people argue, it's standard practice for many to twist things around so the offending party seems considerably less innocent; the truth, as a general rule, lies somewhere betwixt the extremes. It's why many of us end up facepalming during election years.
However, I could make a long list of quiet lurking types who've never gone out of their way to tear people down publicly. I'd consider some of them "unsung heroes" of ShC RP, since they're not particularly vocal or active Haven contributors, and thus many players don't even know who the heck they are.
If I were to make that list, and you picked any name and showed me proof of "aggressive negativity" in a chat channel or chatbox, I would go purchase a hat in your choice of size and styles and proceed to eat the thing. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
There is the "everyone can be
There is the "everyone can be a jerk from someone's pov" thing, yes. There are also the times when, as reasonable adults, we can admit we've been flat out wrong and did something nasty or just plain stupid to one another. it happens and it's OK because people can make mistakes. I know you and I have had our outs over various topics. Some of it pov based, some of it because one of us was having a bad day and didn't like what the other person was saying or how.
Things like people being OK with another player others personally dislike getting driven away from RP and the server? That's not a pov thing. It's happened, in the Haven community--and one of the parties involved is a big reason a lot of people seem to have left that channel (Aside) and the chat. Least the ones I've talked to.
That drama people drug me into Hside, I spent the time telling folks "Show the nice mod screenshots or logs to prove your complaint, or I'm just going to call you a dramamonger, tell you learn to use /ignore if you can't deal with others, and move on. Because I have never seen or heard of 3/4's of what you're claiming personally or by proxy."
There's a lot of hearsay running around already, and all of it from chat drama and people not wanting to be open to those povs, or admit when they're acting foolish or just don't like someone.
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Avatar by Luneaus
Quote:Some of the discussions
One day I simply turned around and told myself I've been here four+ years Horde side, leading a guild, and if I want Shadow Council to be the awesome role-playing server it should be I need to actively work towards that. I am sure that there have been times when I've turned a blind eye. I'm sure there are times when I've been less diplomatic and harsh about things than I could have been. I'd like to think I haven't actively tried to run people off server.
But I've also decided that when I see that sort of crap going on now, I'm going to actively speak up instead of waiting for someone to do it.
/fyi this is Shryn. I'm just too lazy to log to my actual main.
Replying to some of the ideas
Replying to some of the ideas so far.
The idea of a totally neutral OOC channel - good ol' /OCC - is one that has been tossed around for a long time.
It *is* the channel name that most people visiting the server for the first time would instinctively look to.
It has been, for as long as I've known it, a catch-all for everyone remotely interested in RP, which it should be. No affiliations with any guilds, groups, websites, events, etc. Just lots of various RPers.
It has also at times turned into a festering place of unpleasantness due to various personalities, though that doesn't seem to be something /haven itself is immune to either.
In-game chat channels are a tricky subject for RPers because we want two things out of them: communication with all other possible RPers and also a pleasant place to hang around. No matter what good intentions are set forth in the beginning there's going to be unpleasant people, disagreements, and bad days. I've left and joined several chat channels due to these things, and I also selectively mute channels when I don't want to bother. However, leaving the "big" public channels like /OOC and /Haven ends up making our server look more cliquish, more elitist, and more "dead" than it really possibly is. I don't believe ShC at all has a problem with the activity of its RPers - I'm consistently surprised at how many folks are RPing openly and interactively, and how many non-RPers are respectful or even find it interesting - but I do think we've grown very *comfortable* in our habits, which includes the tendency to rest in the familiar and not deal with unpleasantness.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, really, as we all have the right to enjoy the game however we wish to. I am long past having the motivation for any kind of "server betterment" crusades myself.
I'm just wondering what it would be like to open up a little again, just to get some friendly conversation going. Without any expectations or delusions of control over any given situation, but with the option to mute or leave channel (or /ignore someone) if its desired at any given time. But maybe giving /OOC a try again, and spreading the word about it. I would like to see /Haven thrive a bit more, especially A-side where it's so very quiet, because /Haven gives us a place to talk about our blogging and such, too. It may be open for all RPers (and all RPers should at least be invited to the channel and the site) but it is also attached to this website and what goes on here. /OOC, though, is a tempting prospect for inclusion and visibility.
I know I'm sort of thinking aloud at this point, but I'm wondering who else would be up for rejoining /OOC with me and bantering a little here and there. See how it works out. Granted, I don't play terribly often, but a little bit of activity is better than none.
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
It would be nice to have
It would be nice to have somewhere that was a 'go to' place, but if there are a couple of these Bad Apples always causing drama I can see why it doesn't work.
I do personally find A-side impossible to fathom as unless I happen to bump into someone or attend an event, I have no idea how to communicate with other RPers as both /haven and /ooc are almost always sparsely populated (if not empty). All the 'famous faces' from Haven blogs I've never met/RPed with? Where are they!? Do they not want to RP with strangers?! >.> DO THEY NOT EXIST!? I mean, OK, several of you keep telling me to go to Olivia's Pond, but if there's noone there does that mean noone wants to RP or be asked about future RP or be nudged about storylines...? I'd like to know the way your culture works ;)
H-side /haven does have a lot of familiar names I can harass for RP (or hide from - LUCK KEEPS HUGGING ME!) ;) Even if these people aren't hanging out doing nothing at the time, if they're in /haven I feel I can whisper or ask in the channel about meeting up. That is JUST /haven though. I'd be happy to switch to /ooc if there is some kind of general agreement we should have a common meeting point for communication...?
Uh, I'm not saying we should all agree or anything, either, I don't believe in nagging people to all do one thing etc. I am just curious about unofficial consensus type stuff.
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"(I) know what art is! It's paintings of horses!"
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I love RPing with strangers!
I love RPing with strangers! I could probably join a /ooc channel.
(( I've been a longtime "Pond
(( I've been a longtime "Pond Advocate" (and was a Park Advocate before it got stepped on by a dragon), but even I have to admit that the crowd is getting a little thin there. There are some dedicated players who will stick around for a long while even if nobody else is around -- you all know who you are, and you're awesome -- but it's still felt very hit or miss lately.
Personally, I've always been receptive to whispers inquiring about availability for RP, but I fully understand why you'd be hesitant about asking. As gnome-centric RP is kind of a rarity, I've sent my share of whispers that begin with "if time permits in the next few days, could you perhaps log on to ..." and I never felt fully comfortable with it. (No, not even when I was blatantly whining, which I confess I did sometimes.)
I wish I had some better advice, but since most of my recent gameplay time has gone into Randi on her limited trial account, I'm not really in the best position to comment on the current status quo for A-side RP. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
(( It's not so much that I
((
It's not so much that I wouldn't ask you, or any of the Dragoons, or Meddlers, or NightSabres, etc...it's my liking the 'one stop shop' of seeing a list of online people in a channel and knowing who is around that I *could* whisper :)
This thread has certainly shown that it's unlikely that people can happily coexist in such a place, though, so I'll probably have to start /who 'ing various combos of names and guilds and hope to get lucky! Or just hope for random bumping-into RP around town. Such is life :)
))
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"(I) know what art is! It's paintings of horses!"
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(( Yeah, I'm doubtful that
(( Yeah, I'm doubtful that any one OOC channel for RPers could serve as a reliable "extended friendlist" in that way. Even if things were ideal and drama-less, I know a good handful of folks who run with minimal channels just because they prefer the quiet. They're no less friendly and available, they're just not hopeless chatterboxes like us.
You could try using the standard friendlist, I guess, though that could be maxed out/messed up in a hurry if you start adding everyone's alts. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
On friend listing, I know one
On friend listing, I know one of the RSP mods (one of the Flags, I think) had a good friend list aspect to it. I want to say it's one of the lesser-used mods too, that didn't interact with a lot of others, since I know Heulwen tends to run with those off, or did at one point anyway.
The limits were higher, let you add notes and levels of "known guild", "allied guild", and so forth, as you could also add guilds to the friend list.
The current in game list lets me add some notes to it as well, which is where I keep who's an alt of who in it if I have someone not on my Real ID in there.
Maybe I'll comb Curse.com to see if there's anything out there to add to the friend list. I know there are mods for the ignore lists >.<
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Avatar by Luneaus
I'm in /haven on both sides
I'm in /haven on both sides of the fence. Blueside is absolutely dead. Occasionally I make a comment in an absent-minded attempt to stir some chatter up, but nothing seems to come of it.
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So come on honey cut yourself to pieces
Come on honey give yourself completely
And do it all though you can't believe it
Youth knows no pain
- Lykke Li, "Youth Knows No Pain"
I think all my Aside
I think all my Aside characters are in /haven (the Hsiders are all on WrA). I'll try to remember and join /ooc next time I'm on.
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Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
-Diderot
We need the 50 ShC slots to
We need the 50 ShC slots to bring your people 'home' ;)
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"(I) know what art is! It's paintings of horses!"
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(( A random thought
(( A random thought concerning the OOC versus Haven channels, one being more intuitive to join for new players, etc. ... I'm reminded of one of the few features I miss from original EverQuest.
The game had a built-in /ooc command. It worked like a substitute for bracketed /say rather than being a channel, so its uses were limited, but I still rather liked the fact that the developers knew people would be role-playing and thus provided a hard-wired tool. I'd love for a modern MMO to take that mode of thinking and expand it to a built-in OOC channel on every RP server, so everyone knows the "go-to" place.
I don't know if I'd want everyone placed in it automagically like general or trade (plenty of people roll on RP servers with intent of respecting the rules, but no intent to RP, so they'd not really need the channel), but if it was something you could access easily from the main chat menu or whatever, it'd do wonders for networking without the confusion of multiple community-created channels. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
Not only does LOTRO have an
Not only does LOTRO have an automagic OOC channel for each zone, they also have an automatic advice channel and roleplaying channel. Having it "officially" set up like that, I think, does help keep the topics separated!
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
(( That's pretty awesome! I
(( That's pretty awesome! I did do a trial of LotRO but didn't get far enough into it to learn about all its features. On the system I was using at the time, I constantly got the magical morphing tree effect and it drove me absolutely batty.
Not to derail the thread, but please tell me they fixed that. ))
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Inactive ShC characters, send me a message if you need one for a story:
Diana, Lisa, Lulu, Mag, Maggie, Mary, Rabbly, Randi, Saphrona, Veronica & Yarina
Lol, the trees still do that.
Lol, the trees still do that. I ignore them.
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
I don't think I've ever been
I don't think I've ever been in the /haven channel A-side, although, with everyone's comments, there sounds like no point since it's dead. I left the H-side haven a while ago after some drama that finally culminated in-channel with someone getting banned from the channel because he pissed someone off the day before, and that guy got mod. For me, banning someone for no reason other than "I don't like him" is unacceptable, and I didn't want to be in a channel that even tolerates that kind of behavior.
Only ban I ever saw Hside was
Only ban I ever saw Hside was because of a personal attack made publicly. In that case, its perfectly acceptable. If its a personal thing, it should be kept between the respective parties.
All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better. What if they are a little coarse, and you may get your coat soiled or torn? What if you do fail, and get fairly rolled in the dirt once or twice. Up again, you shall never be so afraid of a tumble. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Question, and Challenge."
I frequent the haven channel
I frequent the haven channel H-side. It's the only RP-related channel I'm in there, but I am there with all my toons. I have two or three Alliance toons, I was in /haven when I rolled, but it was so barren and quiet that during one of the random channel wipes I just never rejoined. As for how I use them, it depends on my mood. Mostly I lurk and listen/watch, I'll try to answer a question if I see one, or say hello if someone hops in and does so, but I don't start conversations for the most part.
Appearently, I've been in the
Appearently, I've been in the wrong channel for 3 years...
I'd love it if people would
I'd love it if people would actually use the Haven channel Aside. I have RP questions, and no one to answer them...bc everyone hides in guild OOC channels. :(
All life is an experiment. The more experiments you make the better. What if they are a little coarse, and you may get your coat soiled or torn? What if you do fail, and get fairly rolled in the dirt once or twice. Up again, you shall never be so afraid of a tumble. ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Question, and Challenge."
Ask yer questions! Some
Ask yer questions! Some people are always there. ;)
'Soldiers live, and wonder why.'
~Haven Mod~
What about the art? dekraus.com
When I first came to this
When I first came to this server a very helpful person in the OOC channel directed me towards this site and the in-game channel. I think it's perfectly fine to have your own channel so long as the community has a means to discover it.
If there are always helpful, friendly people out there like the one who assisted me, I believe things will go on just fine. =)