The Alliance and Diplomats from Enemy Factions

Love this topic  >.>

Personally I would treat - or adore to be treated - somewhat like the IRL diplomatic world in the midst of the Cold War.  I don't like the idea that you feel you could never bring a 'maskless villain' to a hotspot.  In my opinion delicious RP could be had with the false bonhomie between people who, although they are ideological enemies, put on (probably) false good manners and 'respect' in public.  That's a TONNE more fun than the "MY PEOPLE HATE YOU /SPIT" thing. 

Again, just my opinion, but if the game allows you to circulate in a certain place, then it should be RPed as if you have official acceptance/permission.  So if people have characters who DO hate you with a passion (as they may have good reason to) then it's really THEY who should have to avoid the hotspots and not you  ;)

I adore the idea of playing a character akin to being, say, the Cultural Attache to the Embassy of the Soviet Union and swanning around cocktail parties.  OK, you're an ideological enemy, OK, everyone suspects you're really KGB, and OK, everyone would rather see you dead or deported......but unless you're caught doing something really awful the political and diplomatic system means that instead you get to have frosty exchanges and fake smiles instead of outward conflict.

Maybe it's because I enjoy complicated 'verbal' RP, but this just seems like soooo much more fun  :)

The 'problem' with RPing in WoW of course is that we are free of the usual social conventions, so a lot of people tend to ignore such limits on behaviour IC, too.  I'm always being threatened with death for very minor things, for example, so whether or not you can actually get sensible treatment for your 'villain' is another matter.  Idealistically, though, I'd love to see you do well with this!

I know that I scrapped my "reformed" Twilight Cultist idea due to not really knowing how to present her to the community.  It's something I still might do after Cata hits (probably better timing as well), but I feel the same way you do.  How would people react, would it be quality RP or just "Your group is crazy, I don't like you, GTFO." kind of stuff. 

Despite there being quest givers and representatives of the Twilight Cultists in Alliance cities/towns, I felt like there wouldn't be much interest or she'd simply be ignored for being part of a radical group of crazies.  I'd love to see more Scarlets/Defias/Bloodsails, etc coming into RP.  You run into people you don't like in real life on a regular basis, why shouldn't it be the same in our RP world?

My brain is slow this morning, but I'm fairly sure that Hordeside there's not only Magatha Grimtotem sitting in her tent on one of the rises, but also I'm almost 100% sure I've known Tauren who RP as Grimtotems.There were also a number of Scourge-types H-side when Wrath came out who were still loyal to the LK. 

I don't see why we can't have "representatives" of the bad guys among us.  Even those trying to sway us to their agendas.  I think the trouble comes when people with itchy trigger fingers go "BAD GUY I KILL YOU" instead of thinking further to the kind of RP Heulwen up there mentions.  It's a wonderful opportunity to get to know your enemy. I'm not sure the right way to go about it for the less mess, but I think it would be very cool.

I think a lot of it depends on 1) who you're dealing with and 2) how you're roleplaying it.

For instance... Scourge walking around free in Silvermoon?  Really?  Every time I see this something inside me weeps.  I cannot see any instance where the Scourge would be tolerated among the Blood Elves.  Same thing with Demons in Darnassus.  ... Really?  How would that in any way, shape or form considered to be acceptable?  If you were in fact an open representative you'd be slaughtered on the spot - faster than anyone in the Alliance/Horde would be owned, absolutely.  A Scarlet Crusader in Forsaken is not going to receive hugs and diplomatic immunity.

I mean, when people think about their roleplay concepts, and the audience they're subjecting their presence to, they really need to be circumspect about the lore.  I really, really want to kill any Scourge (or blatantly free and walking around demons for that matter) I see openly declaring their allegiance in Silvermoon City... but I cannot.  And that's not right.  In a way it's kind of like godmodding - you are subjecting people to a situation where they are prevented from acting in a logical way against you according to how their characters would act.  The only recourse I have with such roleplay is literally to ignore the existance of someone I see doing that.  Because in reality, the guards of that city would be on that individual in a heartbeat, just for being there.

That being said, other factions that are not so "our people are absolute and unquestionable enemies of these dudes" like... Scarlet Crusade in Silvermoon for instance, or Defias in Ironforge, or Twilight's Hammer - factions that we fight against, but don't really have hardcore set-in-stone opinions on - would be totally cool to roleplay, I think.  After all, these factions try to pull from the races of Azeroth - they have to have diplomats able to do that.

But that's the thing, isn't it?  Diplomats have to be able to be diplomatic.  You don't go around as a Scarlet Crusader in Silvermoon glaring and threatening every Forsaken and Death Knight walking down the street.  You don't go around as a Twilight Hammer loudly preaching how the Old Gods will rise and destroy everyone opposed to them.  You are -charismatic-.  You talk about why your faction ain't so bad after all.  You talk about the GOOD things.  Army recruiters don't talk about how hard basic is, they talk about the benefits you get by joining the military.  This is the same principle; if you're there as an ambassador, you are representing your group, and you want to represent them POSITIVELY.  I think I would be a lot less annoyed at the demons wandering around if they actually tried to be SUBTLE, if they actually were less "oh look at me, I'm blatantly tainted by fel powers, go go evil."  And I think way too many people who choose an alternative faction to represent do that.  They are blatant and undiplomatic about their roleplay, and thus why WOULDN'T someone want to kill them?

Heck, even a Cultist of the Damned in Silvermoon could pull it off... IF THEY TRIED TO BE SUBTLE AND FRIGGIN DIPLOMATIC.  There are a lot of villianous characters who pull this off, but there are a lot more who do not, unfortunately.

Just a little two cent thought in my head, if you do want to avoid the whole "Rawr me hat you /spit /insult" at your character, perhaps request help from somebody dedicated to the Alliance/Horde, I know a million and one people who'd love to dress up like a city guard. Perhaps even have a Silver Dragoon follow you around, in my mind it would really help to integrate your character into the society to the point where you don't have to have a guard because the regular roleplayers won't be booing and hissing at you anymore.

Plus really, you can say your an ambassador but would they really let you wander around the city by your self right off the bat?

For my own part, I initially played Vinguld (as his warlock self pre BC) as someone who actually belonged to the Burning Legion and was a Forsaken masquerading as human via drain life spellwork. As such, he was enemy in a lot of ways. The way I managed to avoid outright /spit on me was by playing him as gentile and urbane, and as if his secrets were his alone. Very few people suspected the truth ICly I believe, but most got a strong sense of the creeps from him. In my experience, truly scary people are rarely overtly 'bad'.As such, I believe that a multitude of sins can be (and are) covered by extreme courtesy and gentility. To RP an ambassador, I would think that diplomacy is essential, thus one can use a lot of layered language to subtly insult one's enemies while maintaining an outward pose of complete courtesy.

I don't know about others, but for the most part, roleplaying Vinguld as a lawful evil villain, without a mask, often walking around as an in your face death knight actively agreeing that he has faults.. well, it can be a blast. Disarming others by actively agreeing with them that you're beyond redemption is a hoot and tends to again neatly prevent that old spit emote from coming out.

So my take is that any ambassador is potentially welcome, but that courtesy is key. Too often I see 'bad guys' prancing around being rude and then god modding their way out of inevitable conflicts; that's not remotely how the Soviet Ambassador might act in London during the Cold War, is it. Subtly infiltrating, gathering allies for espionage or more, while outwardly remaining bland and agreeable is a much more likely tactic in a believeable villain character in my books, and corresponds more to real world political necessity.

Anyway, that's my take and experience as a 'villain' who mysteriously has a fan club for his wickedness. ^.~

Hrm... it's situational based on the group and its crimes against the race. Currently the dark iron dwarves would be a somewhat ripe choice for seeking diplomatic solutions, with the death of the emporer and the banishment of the fire lord, they've lost all the threat they once had, and knowing the events of the cataclysm a diplomats presence would not be contradictory. The ambassador would be -loathed- by the people,but would likely be accepted (keeping in mind a very important npc who likely has Magni's ear) grudgingly and protected. Your building would likely have guards in front of it, and your home would likely be occationally watched. In stormwind or Darnassus, I doubt the common folk would heed you any mind, and you'd be able to operate fairly normally, and it'd really be up to your discretion whether or not other cities would pay money for setting up a place for you to operate.

Storyline wise, I'm fairly sure the defias rebellion is crushed.

Pirates would be doable, but rather than as a diplomat it might be more prudent to act as a contect for pirates who wish to be paid as corsairs rather than a diplomat for pirates,as they tend to run a very loose organisation. Corsairs are generally treated well.

The Syndicate would be a good choice, but it is a rather secretive organisation, having a character act as an ambassador to on behalf of the Alterac refugees and secretly acting in the interest of the Syndicate highwaymen would be an interesting way to do it. Though the nation of Alterac is broken and was generally hated, Wrynn's under a lot of pressure to act in human interests.

Scarlet crusade's ok, though they dont accept non humans, Olaff did something similar for years, as I recall. Most commoners know little of the crazed order from lorderan, and to be honest the reason the order is hated is their actions. As long as you dont go murdering non humans you'd get little more trouble than heroes trying to recruit you away from the scarlets.

That's about all I can think of though there are a few neutral organizations that don't have ambassador roleplayers in the major cities. The steemwheedle cartel, the Leauge of Arathor, that highborne group of night elves in Dire maul, and the wildhammer dwarves, off the top of my head.

"Storyline wise, I'm fairly sure the defias rebellion is crushed."

I'd say something but I don't wanna spoil it ^.~

Re: Formal Diplomatic Relations, I think it depends on the relationship the core group has with the nation in question, as has been mentioned above. Are they a Hostile Foreign Power (Horde vs. Alliance, Grimtotem vs. Bloodhoof, Dark Iron vs. Ironforge), a Splinter Sect (Scarlet Crusade vs. Church Of The Holy Light), an Independent Faction (Goblin Cartels at present), a Criminal Organization (Pirates, Defias and Syndicate), or a Mad Terror Cult Or Worse (Twilight or Damned cultists, Legion or Scourge members)? The last two would need some interesting rationale to be FORMALLY recognized as Powers Worth Treating With by pretty much any of the PC nations in game, by my lights.

Having been at this for a while, I definately concur that RPing a hostile faction means having to be subtle about it, and there's quite a bit to consider.  Naturally, you'll be more inclined to RP in areas where the RP is, where people tend to congregate--Stormwind for the Alliance, Silvermoon for the Horde; you just need to find a good reason for being there if the faction you represent isn't necessarily based in that region.  For example; Grimtotem's in Silvermoon?  Less likely than say Ogrimmar or the Undercity or TB, but certainly doable given the (albiet somewhat lessened) presence of the Scourge in QT, or perhaps even tie your presence to the Quel'delar quest line.

Having a solid reason for your character to *be* there is probably the most important thing, I've found.  Having a solid anchor that can be explained to *anyone* ICly for why the guards aren't cutting you down is the first thing--tying it in with the WoW lore.  For example, Varian Wrynn has absolutely no love for the Horde and even less for the Forsaken--entertaining the idea of having a representative from the Scarlet Crusade (or at least my characters own little schism of it) isn't outside the realm of possibilities.  The next step is getting some footholds with the player base--spreading the word around that there's a (insert hostile faction here) in town through word of mouth really helps open up RP opportunities, if done right. 

That all being said, there are a few things that go a bit far beyond the realm of probability--for example, if you were a representative of the Burning Legion, chances are you wouldn't be welcomed in most places on Azeroth, if any that players would normally congregate (unless of course it were out in the swamp somewhere, which would be pretty cool in it's own right).  Likewise, the Scourge would have some real issues of why they aren't attacked on sight if they're parading around and *telling* everyone that they're loyal to Arthas, starting some shit, etc.  But I think everyone who reads this RP haven stuff gets that already, so I'm preaching to the choir a bit :P

Anyway, the long and short of it is, playing a hostile faction involves knowing the lore very well, having a motive for your character to be there, and allowing in the story some reason for it all. 

I only wonder, if by playing an ambassador rp-wise, can there eer be a consensus / agreement? Especially in light of extreme events like the current / future expansion(s)?

Of course, you'll get folks being coldly civil and politely disrespecting your character. But I'm guessing what could they hope to achieve (doing things to make the situation worse)?

(( Thanks for all the responses!  I'll be factoring in everyone's suggestions as I move forward with things.

While I was curious about the subject in general, the group I have in mind is the Twilight's Hammer Clan.  There seem to be a few differing interpretations on whether an emissary from a local branch of the cult can walk freely in Stormwind, which I guess is a good reflection of how mysterious the organization is in terms of practices and public relations, even with their ultimate goal being widely known.

Upon setting up shop in a given area for research and/or worship and/or forbidden summonings, the cult is much more violently defensive than violently aggressive, at least according to my personal interpretation of their various questlines.  While secretive, they do not pack up and leave when their presence is discovered by the Horde or Alliance.  So in my mind, I can see them sending out a few envoys for discussion purposes, if only to forestall any military action and continue their work.

I had no idea how the Alliance might receive such efforts, but replies in this thread have been very helpful on that front.  Heulwen's post pretty much hit the nail on the head about the flavor of RP I'd be aiming for.  The higher ranking Twilight members are generally not gibbering loonies ranting about the end of days, but calm and charismatic leaders with a knack for negotiation -- see Vyral the Vile and Twilight Keeper Havunth, among others.

For those of you who've read the spoilers for the pre-Cataclysm events ... yeah, the cult has good reason to be hanging around Elwynn right about now.    My current plan is to hook my character's existence onto some reports from past Silver Dragoon meetings, in which Pinapple Peppercog reported on a group of Twilight holdouts who remained behind after the conclusion of the Midsummer festival, rather than departing entirely like previous years.

Dimssy and I are currently sporting a <Twilight Cultist> guild tag on our associated alts -- if anyone else is interested in cult flavored RP before the Cataclysm arrives, look us up!  It's only a couple of days old, but there'll be a separate Haven post about it once details get worked out. ))

I think a distinction needs to be made between criminals and other orginizations.

A member of the Defias or Syndicate would be killed/arrested on the spot.  However, they could just take off their mask and walk freely through the streets.

The Scarlet Crusade is different.  They have an officer down in the bowels of Stormwind's Cathedral and have a more "oh those wacky religious nuts" kinda rep.

Dark Irons, Grimtotems and such are sub-races, and are allowed in cities.  There's Dark Irons hanging out in Ironforge even before Cata.

The Twilight Hammer was actually an orc clan led by Cho'gall until it became the widespread cult we know today.  Wowwiki mentions that the real cult exists within the cult, so maybe it's possible for there to be small groups of weirdos in cities that claim to be Twilight Cultists.

Given the fact that every time we see Twilight Cultists, in Darkshore, Silithus and Northrend, we're killing them as hard as we can, I'd find it hard to believe that a Twilight Cultists would be welcomed in any Horde or Alliance city.

That doesn't mean they can't hide in plain sight!

He can't and doesn't :P

((I saw you in the auction house this morning (and accidentally invited you to join a group while you were afk... I was trying to inspect your outfit) and really appreciated the emotes you were doing in regard to the guards. They show a character's understanding that they may not be appreciated but are making it clear to those with the power to arrest (or at least harass) them that they're not trrying to start trouble.))

((

Now eschew gnomes and come and roll a fascinating, politically edgy character H-side......please?  :)

))

((

Taking into consideration the very brief, very hint of doomsayers coming to our major cities by way of a single screenshot of a human in what looked like Elwynn Forest wearing a sign over his shoulders that, presumably, reads something along the lines of "The end is nigh!", I expect that Twilight Cultists raving like madmen actually would have a place in the cities.  Things will definitely have to be brought to an end by local law enforcement if anything even close to sedition starts to come up in the ranting, though.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/697375-Cataclysm-Prologue-Gnomeregan-and-the-Echo-Isles

edit: Of course, once the Cataclysm does happen and Twilight Cultists and Deathwing arise as major adversaries, spreading their doctrine would probably be met with greater hostility.

))

(Another aspect occurs to me for believability standards in terms of Ambassadors in general from, say, Horde to Alliance or vice versa. I've seen more of the eclectic variations on that theme, but it's certainly one I've seen people attempting to RP those over the years. I think that in order to play a truly believeable character and one others actually MIGHT consider an Ambassador, you cannot have a single HK to your name. Your character cannot be the great grand slayer of babies and an Ambassador.. I think that breaks believability at least for myself. It would be known by either faction if you'd been killing their soldiers.. they'd know who egregious organizations are.

And while you could have the Capt. Kirk as peace envoy to the Klingons factor, it wouldn't ever be a formal Ambassadorial post. Hatred just runs too deep to permit it and make it believable.)

I just saw the updated race-intros that were posted on MMO champion, and I thought it was interesting in light of this discussion. Take a look at 'em if you haven't (they're spoiler-filled; be warned):

Alliance

Horde (minus the Goblins; their intro isn't done)

Moar Spoilers:

So, I find it interesting that the Grimtotems are implied to have gone from tolerated to driven out, while the Dark Iron dwarves are now semi-officially represented in the politics of Ironforge. Eeeeeeeenteresting.

"Another aspect occurs to me for believability standards in terms of Ambassadors in general from, say, Horde to Alliance or vice versa. I've seen more of the eclectic variations on that theme, but it's certainly one I've seen people attempting to RP those over the years. I think that in order to play a truly believeable character and one others actually MIGHT consider an Ambassador, you cannot have a single HK to your name. Your character cannot be the great grand slayer of babies and an Ambassador.. I think that breaks believability at least for myself. It would be known by either faction if you'd been killing their soldiers.. they'd know who egregious organizations are.Of course, this all depends on whom you're trying to represent."

Of course, this depends on who you want to represent and where you wish to do as an ambassador. I've personaly rp-ed Iri as an 'ambassador of sorts" to the Horde. What you CAN see is she has HKs. but these only fuel what 'she's all about' in her campaign. She aims to unify the Horde from in-house fighting and discord amongst the Ebonites. doesn't mean of course, she won't lop off a dranny baby's head. ;p